The Canadian Museum for Human Rights
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Brent Bellamy wrote an interesting article arguing that great architecture necessitates cost overruns. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/inspiration-comes-with-a-cost-136526313.html . The CMHR building is truly gorgeous. 100 years from now, people will still admire the architecture, while the overspending will be a footnote - just as is the case with the Legislature. The construction of the museum is actually now totally paid for (and yes, there were overruns), the current money problem is regarding exhibits.
So, the worst case would be that the museum people cannot afford to install the exhibits and we are left with an empty building. Temporarily putting aside the fact that I have a personal connection to the project, I suppose it would be alright if they just completed the building and then sold it off for some other purpose. -
I won't argue with you in the fact that the building itself is beautiful. What I am concerned about (aside from the cost overruns and the inability to finish the project), is the possible and probable slanted take the CMHR has on Human Rights. For instance, the Friends of the Museum have run numerous studies in regards as to what Canadians actually want in the museum, in terms of Human Rights abuses, and awareness of Human rights.
Every survey that has been conducted has never placed the Holocaust as the #1 exhibit that Canadians want to see. Yet, the CMHR has ignored the wishes of Canadians, and it looks like the Holocaust will be the premiere exhibit of display, despite the #1 choice of the plight of the Aboriginal people. There are several other examples of groups being excluded or marginalized, but i will leave it at that.
I support Human Rights and would love to see honor the wishes of Canadians but I have the feeling this will only occur with a complete overhaul of the CMHR staff, and to disband "Friends of the Museum."Post edited by LRT at 2012-01-03 00:07:01 -
LRT said:
Every survey that has been conducted has never placed the Holocaust as the #1 exhibit that Canadians want to see. Yet, the CMHR has ignored the wishes of Canadians, and it looks like the Holocaust will be the premiere exhibit of display, despite the #1 choice of the plight of the Aboriginal people. There are several other examples of groups being excluded or marginalized, but i will leave it at that.
As far as I know, these two topics will get exhibits of equal size.Post edited by Munchkinguy at 2012-01-03 01:37:52 -
Yes, Riverman. I agree. This museum looks great from a distance, but inside lies corruption, elitism, and a complete indifference to the community. I hope the board is purged, and replaced by more honest brokers when it comes to Human rights issues. if that cannot be accomplished, let us turn it into something Manitobans will be proud of.
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OldChum said:
Yes Stephen will acomplish that after all it is his baby now . The whole reason for it;s existence is controversy , will make for lots of Free Press coverage and advertising though.
Please tell me you don't believe that lie. Stephen Harper and the Conservatives had very little to do with this project. In fact, I commend the PM for refusing to divert additional finding to make up for the cost overruns of this project.
Thanked by 1Riverman -
OldChum said:
Yes Stephen will accomplish that after all it is his baby now .
This is completely incorrect. The museum board is responsible for all costs and cost overruns. The limit of the gov't contribution is $100m plus the $22m annual operating expenses. The museum board assured the senate committee it had enough money in a contingency fund to cover all costs including exhibits. This is a matter of public record.
Post edited by Riverman at 2012-01-04 21:45:15 -
The Freep's coverage of this and trying to cast blame onto the Government for any cost overruns is truly sickening.
What next - a column by Miss Lonelyhearts about how great the CMHR is? Ed Tait? The Wine reviewer?
What they should do is pull the plugs on the whole CMHR project and turn this into a world class convention centre, that would be much more beneficial to the community!! -
My journalist friend put it perfectly: The Winnipeg Sun is not a real newspaper but unlike the Winnipeg Free Press it does not pretend to be a real newspaper.
The sad part is that it is getting worse.Post edited by Riverman at 2012-01-04 22:04:10 -
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=2355 Read Crown Corporation hence patronage appointies .
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Oldchum please post a like showing where the Govt of Canada hasn taken the museum over from the Board. Here is a link to the senate committee hearings.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/392/huma/03evb-e.htm?comm_id=77&Language=E&Parl=39&Ses=2 -
Senator Johnson: Could you answer a question about the first director being recommended by the Minister of Heritage rather than the board? On the four other museums in Canada, the board of trustees makes the recommendation for the director. Here, the minister appoints both the board as well as the director. Why is there this differentiation?
Ms. Sherwood: In this case, it is really a pragmatic approach. The 1990s act, which establishes the four existing museums as Crown corporations, came into being at a time when the institutions existed. They had facilities and staff. When the boards were created, there was actually an infrastructure to support them. In the case of this institution, there is, at this point, no infrastructure to support the new board. It is really a question of having the two come into being simultaneously.
Senator Johnson: The control is with the government and not the Friends or the Asper Foundation.
Ms. Sherwood: Absolutely, that is correct. -
There is pressure for the Feds to offer bridge financing. The risk is that, once it's in place, there will be pressure to change it from a loan to a donation, as the likelihood of the loan being repaid will seem remote.
What surprises me about the fundraising is that there are many wealthy sources in this country. Some have donated, but clearly most are not doing so. Sends a message to the average person that if the wealthy and powerful aren't supporting the museum, why should the public at large do so? This is not to belittle the tens of millions of dollars already privately raised. Some have questioned, though, whether those big cheques constitute money in the bank or a promise to donate over a period of years. I kinda wish the museum would be more forthcoming in the nature of these large donations. -
Riverman said:
My journalist friend put it perfectly: The Winnipeg Sun is not a real newspaper but unlike the Winnipeg Free Press it does not pretend to be a real newspaper.
The sad part is that it is getting worse.
So the Free Press' owners donated $1 million and then their editorial board decided that the paper should take a pro-museum stance. Sure, once the thing is open for business, the paper stands to make money from advertising, we get it. But you've got to wonder why they feel the need to take any editorial stance, pro or otherwise, as readers expect a newspaper to report the news. I would guess that they have printed more "advertorial"-type articles than unbiased articles. I believe had they asked the type of regular journalistic questions about the museum all along, the public's best interest would have been better served. Why shape the news rather than just report it?
Thanked by 1LRT -
Hey Trin, Why did GOM from the Winnipeg Sandbox move his CMHR discussion thread into a members only area? I thought that was kind of bizarre.
Speaking of the CMHR, did you see the newest entry from the Black Rod blog that was published today, in regards to the museum:
http://blackrod.blogspot.com/2012/01/from-shill-to-saint-what-week-on-cmhr.htmlPost edited by LRT at 2012-01-08 18:49:54 -
LTR, I honestly did not notice that the main CMHR thread was moved to the 'members only' section. You'd have to ask him.
I just read the Black Rod article. Very interesting about the Sydney Opera House. This is the kind of context that you would hope to read in the main stream media but we don't because it doesn't fit their editorial slant. I've also noticed that when people post comments to the Free Press and post the URL for the Black Rod, their posts get deleted. -
Does 'members only' mean that only logged-in users can view the page thread?
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Munchkinguy said:
Does 'members only' mean that only logged-in users can view the page thread?
Correct.
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My new blog post re. an absence of project management at CMHR:
http://anybody-want-a-peanut.blogspot.com/2012/01/cmhr-part-1-project-management.htmlThanked by 1LRT -
Here is a very interesting opinion piece by a writer of the National Post, outlining three reasons why the Canadian Museum for Human Rights is doomed to fail:
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/Build+they+come/5896511/story.html
"Somewhere down the line, taxpayers will have to clean up this mess. The only blessing is that Israel Asper - bless his fine intentions - won't be around to see his dream turned into a convention centre and casino a few years after it opens."Post edited by LRT at 2012-01-09 00:56:31 -
OldChum said:
I would imagine that alot of other museums went thru all of this at some point in their start.
Uh, no. Nothing like this embarrassment.
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Riverman said:OldChum said:
I would imagine that alot of other museums went thru all of this at some point in their start.
Uh, no. Nothing like this embarrassment.
The CMHR may be one of most poorly managed construction projects in the history of the city. With each passing day, it seems to become more of a gong show. With the business sense of the Asper children, is it any wonder why CanWest went belly-up?Post edited by LRT at 2012-01-14 09:39:05 -
Gail didn't run CanWest, Leonard did. It was Izzy's mountain of debt and Leonard's failure to take the steps needed to deal with it that sunk them.
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The CMHR may be one of most poorly managed construction projects in the history of the city.
Seems to me we started a lottery to pay off a construction project in Montreal , and the staduim here is not done yet .Post edited by OldChum at 2012-01-13 21:14:39 -
OldChum said:
Seems to me we started a lottery to pay off a construction project in Montreal , and the staduim here is not done yet .
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Sorry, but I am not following you.Post edited by LRT at 2012-01-14 02:36:45 -
Human rights museum a flop?
"Although a majority of Canadians say they support the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, there's not a great deal of interest in actually visiting it.
According to a poll conducted by Abacus Data for QMI Agency, only 15% of Canadians say they're either very or somewhat likely to make a special trip to Winnipeg to visit the museum, which is still under construction in the Manitoba capital. In addition, 42% of respondents said they're either unlikely to visit the museum or not at all interested in going, even if they were already in Winnipeg for some other reason.."
http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/national/2012/01/31/19320226.html
Post edited by LRT at 2012-02-03 06:14:32Thanked by 1Riverman -
I think the statistical analysis here is not so rigorous. How many people will make a special trip to Ottawa to visit the Museum of Civilization? How many people will make a special trip to Halifax to visit Pier 21? Probably not that many.
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Even if I was going to be in Ottawa, the Museum of Civilization would not be high on my list of things to do. I can't see going to the CMHR even being so close to Winnipeg and driving right by it every month or so.
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OldChum said:
The CMHR may be one of most poorly managed construction projects in the history of the city.
Seems to me we started a lottery to pay off a construction project in Montreal , and the staduim here is not done yet .
It was in refrence to the huge bill tha big O ran up and how people yelled and screamed now they are cool with it . 649 paid the debt created in Montreal .
Lets hope we don,t need one for our stadium as it is going way over 190 mill trust me .
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OldChum said:
It was in refrence to the huge bill tha big O ran up and how people yelled and screamed now they are cool with it . 649 paid the debt created in Montreal .
Lets hope we don,t need one for our stadium as it is going way over 190 mill trust me .
I have no idea where you get the impression that people in Montreal are "cool" with the Olympic Stadium. The "Big O" was the most poorly designed, and least cost effective sports venue ever built in Canadian history.
Most citizens of Quebec still regard it as a White Elephant, considering the Expos left the province, and even the Alouettes will not play at the venue, with the exception of the odd playoff game. -
Woofers said:
Even if I was going to be in Ottawa, the Museum of Civilization would not be high on my list of things to do. I can't see going to the CMHR even being so close to Winnipeg and driving right by it every month or so.
Yet about 50% of respondents said that if they did go to Winnipeg, they would visit the CMHR. -
The sad thing is that the Canadian Museum for Human Rights could still be a very positive thing for our city if there is a complete overhaul of the Board of Trustees. First off, fire Gail Asper. I'm not sure if I am the only one pointing this out, but the Asper family (especially Izzy), were supporters of constructing Jewish settlements in the West Bank. In fact, the Asper family gave millions to the state of Israel to construct these settlements, even though the United Nations has condemned them as illegal, stating they are in violation of Palestinian human rights.
Am I the only one who finds this ironic? It would be like a rich Chinese Canadian businessman building a Human Rights museum, while supporting Chinese military actions in the autonomous region of Tibet. Is Israel, and those that support the state somehow immune from international law?
Additionally, the Friends of the Museum conducted a poll in 2006 to see what Canadians would like to see in the new museum. Canadians overwhelmingly voted the #1 choice would be the plight of the Aboriginal people in Canada. However, the CMHR ignored this, and made the Holocaust it's showcase exhibit, despite the best wishes of the Canadian people.
I've actually heard of cases of Gail Asper, or a CMHR spokesperson being interviewed on the radio, and fielding calls from city residents. Two people that I have spoken to had phoned in to ask whether there would be an exhibit or mention of the plight of the Palestinian people in the Occupied territories. Click! The line went dead seconds later. That is all you need to know about this so-called "Human Rights" museum.
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That's one of the things that I worry most about with this museum: the content is very subjective. Obviously certain things need to be represented, but how they're represented and which other things are included is a very contentious subject, and they risk alienating many people. Really, there is no way to get it completely right, but it could also go very wrong if they're not careful.
By the way, I was on UMFM talking about CMHR two weeks ago. Basically just a rehash of my blog posts. It wasn't my best radio performance but if you want to listen there is a pod cast out there somewhere.Thanked by 1LRT -
LRT, I think I mentioned this in an earlier post, but the Holocaust and Canada's Aboriginal Issues each get their own floor in the museum.
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Munchkinguy said:
LRT, I think I mentioned this in an earlier post, but the Holocaust and Canada's Aboriginal Issues each get their own floor in the museum.
Yes, I have been aware of this for a couple of years.
I'm not sure if you understand what i am getting at. I don't believe the hardships or suffering of any ethnic/religious group should be given precedence over another group. Unfortunately, this is happening with the CMHR (ask the Ukrainians, Germans, etc.). In the last two years, it can be argued that the museum has done more to divide ethnic communities in Winnipeg than unite them.
The only solution is to purge the board of the CMHR, and bring in impartial historians and scholars that will work to represent the best interests of all Canadians. I just cannot believe the number of people who buy into the idea that the Holocaust was somehow "unique" or "special," when compared to similar atrocities like the Armenian Genocide, Rwanda, Cambodia, the Holodomor, Bosnia, Darfur, etc.
Post edited by LRT at 2012-02-05 07:04:28 -
Our Prime Minister will kiss the ass of the most oppressive Human Right's regime in the world to sell them oil from Alberta . Nothing wrong with that in Alberta is their LRT. Suggest you look into what Izzy and Babs also did for this city much of it unherealded in the press .
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OldChum said:
Our Prime Minister will kiss the ass of the most oppressive Human Right's regime in the world to sell them oil from Alberta . Nothing wrong with that in Alberta is their LRT.
Sorry Pav, but I think this is the thread you may want to put your comment in:
http://www.winnipegzoom.com/forum/discussion/23/the-northern-gateway-pipeline#Item_36
Post edited by LRT at 2012-02-05 08:24:08 -
LRT said:
I just cannot believe the number of people who buy into the idea that the Holocaust was somehow "unique" or "special," when compared to similar atrocities like the Armenian Genocide, Rwanda, Cambodia, the Holodomor, Bosnia, Darfur, etc.
You'll have to count me among them. This is not a Museum of Human Atrocities; it is a museum of human rights. The Holocaust has a historically-significant place in the development of the idea of human rights, and therefore deserves unique treatment. This is based on a Hegelian understanding of history. If you would like to research this further, I recommend "Introduction to the Philosophy of History" by G.W.F. Hegel. -
This could be a significant structure for Winnipeg. That is if the government steps in and turns it into a convention center. Otherwise, on it's current course it will be nothing more that a money pit of a Holocaust Museum. And make no mistake, it's a Holocaust Museum and any other exhibits exist only to allow them to call it a 'national museum'
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And the goverment commited it self to run it .
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Which government are you referring to, OldChum?
Wait a minute. Why am I even asking this? I will save you the time of elaborating on your post, since it's obvious you were going to single out the Prime Minister. Even though all three levels of government made financial commitments to the CMHR, only Harper is to blame for this mess, right OC?
Nazi party propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels once made a speech stating "The Jews are to blame for everything wrong in Germany!" By putting the blame on the Prime Minister for all of the problems of the CMHR, OldChum is just revising that quote to read "Stephen Harper is to blame for everything wrong in Canada!"
Post edited by LRT at 2012-02-05 22:25:05Thanked by 1JTF -
stnorberter said:
Otherwise, on it's current course it will be nothing more that a money pit of a Holocaust Museum.
What do you mean exactly? Do you mean that any Holocaust Museum is a money pit? When something is 'nothing more than a Holocaust museum', does that imply that such museum is unworthy? -
Munchkinguy said:stnorberter said:
Otherwise, on it's current course it will be nothing more that a money pit of a Holocaust Museum.
What do you mean exactly? Do you mean that any Holocaust Museum is a money pit? When something is 'nothing more than a Holocaust museum', does that imply that such museum is unworthy?
i could be wrong, but what I think he means is the museum is destined to fail, since no matter what the best wishes of the Canadian people are, the CMHR will turn out to be nothing but a watered-down Holocaust museum.
The sad thing is that there is evidence that Izzy Asper's primary goal was to build a Holocaust Museum in Winnipeg. If Izzy had financed this museum with private funding, I am sure everyone would have been fine with it. Unfortunately, Ottawa would not help him out with his goal, so he had a back up plan to build a human rights museum.
By the way the Aspers have acted for the last few years, and their refusal to release any documents or financial statements to the public in regards to the museum, can one blame the average citizen of Winnipeg for not trusting them? -
I am assuming that stnorberter does not find anything wrong with Holocaust museums in general, but only does not want a museum to be called one thing but actually be another. If that is the case, then he should be more careful in his wording.
If I were robbed by an Indian, and I called them "a theif of an Indian", I might be accused of being racist because I implied a cause between the two. Likewise with "a money pit of a Holocaust Museum".
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